now i have to find or figure out the VE and AFR tables (btw, do i need the spark advance map if im running a dizzy?) dont suppose there is any way to figure out those tables without datalogging a stock running engine? thanks allv6 6G72, AFR, VE and Spark Advance Os
Forum rules
Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
-
shadowplane676
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:29 am
v6 6G72, AFR, VE and Spark Advance Os
edit2: ok, answered a bunch of the previous questions myself now i have to find or figure out the VE and AFR tables (btw, do i need the spark advance map if im running a dizzy?) dont suppose there is any way to figure out those tables without datalogging a stock running engine? thanks all
now i have to find or figure out the VE and AFR tables (btw, do i need the spark advance map if im running a dizzy?) dont suppose there is any way to figure out those tables without datalogging a stock running engine? thanks allWhat kind of Dizzy ?
Does it have Centrifugal advance weights and a Vacuum Advance Can ?
If it doesn't you engine will be a dog without MS controlling Advance .
There are big advantages to running computer controlled Advance ,
you need to find out what the maximum advance that your
Combustion Chamber Design likes at speeds over 2500 to 3000 RPM ,
once you have that number everything else just falls into place .
If your engine came without computer controlled timing ,
you can calculate this by taking your stock "Initial Timing" figure and
adding it to the maximum "Centrifugal Advance" , this number is
usually available in the factory shop manual for your car .
You didn't give any information about your car or your engine or
any modifications you may have made , these can have a huge
influence on all adjustments .
There's full instructions on how to set up your "Required Fuel" settings
based on displacement and injector size , once you do that MegaTune
can create a "sorta close" VE Table for you .
Look at the Manual here :
http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/
...................Jim
Does it have Centrifugal advance weights and a Vacuum Advance Can ?
If it doesn't you engine will be a dog without MS controlling Advance .
There are big advantages to running computer controlled Advance ,
you need to find out what the maximum advance that your
Combustion Chamber Design likes at speeds over 2500 to 3000 RPM ,
once you have that number everything else just falls into place .
If your engine came without computer controlled timing ,
you can calculate this by taking your stock "Initial Timing" figure and
adding it to the maximum "Centrifugal Advance" , this number is
usually available in the factory shop manual for your car .
You didn't give any information about your car or your engine or
any modifications you may have made , these can have a huge
influence on all adjustments .
There's full instructions on how to set up your "Required Fuel" settings
based on displacement and injector size , once you do that MegaTune
can create a "sorta close" VE Table for you .
Look at the Manual here :
http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/
...................Jim
-
shadowplane676
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:29 am
sorry about the lacking info, so here it is:
1992 Plymouth Sundance Duster
original engine - Chrysler 6G72 v6 SOHC 12v 8.8:1 (145/175)
being replaced by
2000 Eclipse GT 6G72 SOHC 24v 10:1 (205/205)
the dizzy does NOT have a vaccume ro mechanical advance, so it would be ECU controlled in that case.
Mods:
cold air intake, OBX headers
I got the "guestamated" VE table which should be ok to start (i hope) because i have found jack on the VE for this engine so far
MSII i believe is the cheapest way to get the motor running the best, because i do not have the eclipse ECU and i am not sure if it will run well, if at all on my current ECU.
Thanks
Stuart Rowe
1992 Plymouth Sundance Duster
original engine - Chrysler 6G72 v6 SOHC 12v 8.8:1 (145/175)
being replaced by
2000 Eclipse GT 6G72 SOHC 24v 10:1 (205/205)
the dizzy does NOT have a vaccume ro mechanical advance, so it would be ECU controlled in that case.
Mods:
cold air intake, OBX headers
I got the "guestamated" VE table which should be ok to start (i hope) because i have found jack on the VE for this engine so far
MSII i believe is the cheapest way to get the motor running the best, because i do not have the eclipse ECU and i am not sure if it will run well, if at all on my current ECU.
Thanks
Stuart Rowe
You won't find VE numbers for any engine , VE Tables are "Calculated"
based on the torque and HP numbers and displacement .
Then you have the real world ,
there are so many variables that can affect VE that all you can do is
guess and measure , guess and measure , repeat , repeat , repeat .
Sometimes the "Genrate VE Table" fuction is surprisingly close .
That brings me to the next subject , you need a Wide Band 02 Sensor ,
unless you really like smashing things and throwing wrenches .
They are around $200.00 ,
you can get them from this guy , I like the way he does business :
http://www.diyautotune.com/
You will thank me , it's worth 3 times that .
Do you have the stock Intake Air Temp Sensor ?
you must have it for MS to work .
You still didn't include much usefull information ,
and by the way what do these numbers mean ? (145/175) (205/205)
Usefull information is stuff like :
Intake Manifold design ?
Factory High Perf version ?
Stock Max Torque and what RPM ?
Stock HP and at what RPM ?
Engine Redline RPM ?
Max Ignition Advance above 3000 RPM ?
Engine displacement ?
Injector Flow lbs. per Hr. ?
3 wire or 4 wire TPS ?
All info about Dizzy and/or Toothed Wheels and Sensors ?
All info about Ignition Module and Coils ?
Intended use of the car , Race Car , Grocery Getter ?
Mentioning the Headers was good .
You will need to know all this stuff and more to
setup MS and really get it "right" .
The VE Table will be close IF you entered all the numbers in accurately .
If you will get these questions answered accurately I'll make you a
Spark Advance Table that will be very close , it may take hours of
Google Searching and dead ends but you must have a pretty close
Idea on all these numbers :
Stock Max Torque and what RPM ?
Stock Max HP and at what RPM ?
Engine Redline RPM ?
Max Ignition Advance above 3000 RPM ? this one especially .
Engine displacement ?
based on the torque and HP numbers and displacement .
Then you have the real world ,
there are so many variables that can affect VE that all you can do is
guess and measure , guess and measure , repeat , repeat , repeat .
Sometimes the "Genrate VE Table" fuction is surprisingly close .
That brings me to the next subject , you need a Wide Band 02 Sensor ,
unless you really like smashing things and throwing wrenches .
They are around $200.00 ,
you can get them from this guy , I like the way he does business :
http://www.diyautotune.com/
You will thank me , it's worth 3 times that .
Do you have the stock Intake Air Temp Sensor ?
you must have it for MS to work .
You still didn't include much usefull information ,
and by the way what do these numbers mean ? (145/175) (205/205)
Usefull information is stuff like :
Intake Manifold design ?
Factory High Perf version ?
Stock Max Torque and what RPM ?
Stock HP and at what RPM ?
Engine Redline RPM ?
Max Ignition Advance above 3000 RPM ?
Engine displacement ?
Injector Flow lbs. per Hr. ?
3 wire or 4 wire TPS ?
All info about Dizzy and/or Toothed Wheels and Sensors ?
All info about Ignition Module and Coils ?
Intended use of the car , Race Car , Grocery Getter ?
Mentioning the Headers was good .
You will need to know all this stuff and more to
setup MS and really get it "right" .
The VE Table will be close IF you entered all the numbers in accurately .
If you will get these questions answered accurately I'll make you a
Spark Advance Table that will be very close , it may take hours of
Google Searching and dead ends but you must have a pretty close
Idea on all these numbers :
Stock Max Torque and what RPM ?
Stock Max HP and at what RPM ?
Engine Redline RPM ?
Max Ignition Advance above 3000 RPM ? this one especially .
Engine displacement ?
-
shadowplane676
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:29 am
ok, i have some of the info for you
also the (205/205) is i believe flywheel hp/tq numbers
engine redline (fuel cutout) 6200 rpms
displacement 181 ci or 3.0L
max torque X at 3400 rpms (checking for WHP/WTQ numbers)
max HP: X at 5400 rpms
injectors: 210cc
checking on the TPS soon....
dizzy is a cam driven single external coil design
intended use: quick daily driver maybe SCCA Solo later, depends what class id be in
ill work on getting the other information, is there anything else you need?
thanks a lot
also the (205/205) is i believe flywheel hp/tq numbers
engine redline (fuel cutout) 6200 rpms
displacement 181 ci or 3.0L
max torque X at 3400 rpms (checking for WHP/WTQ numbers)
max HP: X at 5400 rpms
injectors: 210cc
checking on the TPS soon....
dizzy is a cam driven single external coil design
intended use: quick daily driver maybe SCCA Solo later, depends what class id be in
ill work on getting the other information, is there anything else you need?
thanks a lot
Did your engine come with a complete wiring harness ?
You need a Service Manual with Wiring Schematics ,
You can get them from a Dealer .
You can contact Mitsubishi directly at 1-800-222-0037 or 1-800-447-4700
You probably have a 4 wire TPS Sensor , you will have to determine
which wire you don't need and where the other 3 wires go .
You have 2 different distributor outputs , you need to make sure that
you have an Output that has 6 equal pulses per Cam revolution , or....
You also have a Crank Position Sensor , if it produces 3 pulses per
crank revolution you can probably use it instead .
You also need to determine whether the Sensors need to be powered and
with what voltage .
Choosing which one will depend upon how many degrees before or after
TDC that they switch on and off .
If your engine came with a MAF Sensor (Mass Air Flow) you may
not have an IAT Sensor or MAP Sensor
you have to have both an IAT and MAP for MS to work .
You also need to identify the trigger wire for your stock ignition module .
Do you have all of this figured out ?
The torque and HP numbers I found look more realistic than
the numbers you gave :
188 lbs/ft @ 4500 rpm
187 HP @ 5500 rpm
Also for more info check out this web site :
http://www.stealth316.com/0-frames.htm
You need a Service Manual with Wiring Schematics ,
You can get them from a Dealer .
You can contact Mitsubishi directly at 1-800-222-0037 or 1-800-447-4700
You probably have a 4 wire TPS Sensor , you will have to determine
which wire you don't need and where the other 3 wires go .
You have 2 different distributor outputs , you need to make sure that
you have an Output that has 6 equal pulses per Cam revolution , or....
You also have a Crank Position Sensor , if it produces 3 pulses per
crank revolution you can probably use it instead .
You also need to determine whether the Sensors need to be powered and
with what voltage .
Choosing which one will depend upon how many degrees before or after
TDC that they switch on and off .
If your engine came with a MAF Sensor (Mass Air Flow) you may
not have an IAT Sensor or MAP Sensor
you have to have both an IAT and MAP for MS to work .
You also need to identify the trigger wire for your stock ignition module .
Do you have all of this figured out ?
The torque and HP numbers I found look more realistic than
the numbers you gave :
188 lbs/ft @ 4500 rpm
187 HP @ 5500 rpm
Also for more info check out this web site :
http://www.stealth316.com/0-frames.htm
-
shadowplane676
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:29 am
Did your engine come with a complete wiring harness ?
- No, i am getting a MS harness kit
You probably have a 4 wire TPS Sensor , you will have to determine
which wire you don't need and where the other 3 wires go .
- the TB on my original 6G72 motor is a 3 wire, but i dont know about the new one
You have 2 different distributor outputs , you need to make sure that
you have an Output that has 6 equal pulses per Cam revolution , or....
You also have a Crank Position Sensor , if it produces 3 pulses per
crank revolution you can probably use it instead .
- isnt a CAS used most often with DIS? and depending whether i use the old dizzy (external coil, 4 wire connector) or the new dizzy (internal coil, 6wire connector) wouldnt that pulse 6 times per engine cycle anyways?
You also need to determine whether the Sensors need to be powered and
with what voltage .
Choosing which one will depend upon how many degrees before or after
TDC that they switch on and off .
- as far as i can tell, i have a guage temp sensor (1 wire) common 2 wire engine temp sensor, O2 sensor, Oil pressure, MAP
If your engine came with a MAF Sensor (Mass Air Flow) you may
not have an IAT Sensor or MAP Sensor
you have to have both an IAT and MAP for MS to work .
i have a map sensor and probably an IAT
You also need to identify the trigger wire for your stock ignition module.
- which trigger whire? power to the coil? spark trigger to the plug is via dizzy.....
The torque and HP numbers I found look more realistic than
the numbers you gave :
188 lbs/ft @ 4500 rpm
187 HP @ 5500 rpm
- true, i think the ones i found were for either flywheel HP/TQ or a GTS motor
Quotes = red
- No, i am getting a MS harness kit
You probably have a 4 wire TPS Sensor , you will have to determine
which wire you don't need and where the other 3 wires go .
- the TB on my original 6G72 motor is a 3 wire, but i dont know about the new one
You have 2 different distributor outputs , you need to make sure that
you have an Output that has 6 equal pulses per Cam revolution , or....
You also have a Crank Position Sensor , if it produces 3 pulses per
crank revolution you can probably use it instead .
- isnt a CAS used most often with DIS? and depending whether i use the old dizzy (external coil, 4 wire connector) or the new dizzy (internal coil, 6wire connector) wouldnt that pulse 6 times per engine cycle anyways?
You also need to determine whether the Sensors need to be powered and
with what voltage .
Choosing which one will depend upon how many degrees before or after
TDC that they switch on and off .
- as far as i can tell, i have a guage temp sensor (1 wire) common 2 wire engine temp sensor, O2 sensor, Oil pressure, MAP
If your engine came with a MAF Sensor (Mass Air Flow) you may
not have an IAT Sensor or MAP Sensor
you have to have both an IAT and MAP for MS to work .
i have a map sensor and probably an IAT
You also need to identify the trigger wire for your stock ignition module.
- which trigger whire? power to the coil? spark trigger to the plug is via dizzy.....
The torque and HP numbers I found look more realistic than
the numbers you gave :
188 lbs/ft @ 4500 rpm
187 HP @ 5500 rpm
- true, i think the ones i found were for either flywheel HP/TQ or a GTS motor
Quotes = red
A "Wiring Harness Kit" does not include connectors for every thing on your particular engine .
Hopefully , since your 2 engines are similar , you can use your original
wiring harness and distributor , you need to check carefully to see if the
distributors are physically interchangeable .
You will have to cut off the plugs to your stock ECM and identify all the
wires by color and function so that you can connect your MS to
the appropriate Sensors , etc.
Examples :
There is a wire that goes to your ignition module that fires the coil .
There are wires from your distributor pick-up , one needs ground ,
one needs 12volts or 5volts , one puts out a "Tach Signal" , some will not be used .
Your TPS Sensor will have to be supplied with 5volts from MS , it also
needs a ground and has an "output" wire .
The Coolant and Intake Air Temp sensors have to be grounded by MS and
each has an output wire to MS .
You probably have wiring for a "Heated 02 Sensor" you need to know which wire
goes to what so that you can hook-up your New Wide Band 02 Sensor .
You need to find the power supply wires for your injectors .
You need a factory sevice manual with wiring schematics to identify these and other wires .
...................Jim
Hopefully , since your 2 engines are similar , you can use your original
wiring harness and distributor , you need to check carefully to see if the
distributors are physically interchangeable .
You will have to cut off the plugs to your stock ECM and identify all the
wires by color and function so that you can connect your MS to
the appropriate Sensors , etc.
Examples :
There is a wire that goes to your ignition module that fires the coil .
There are wires from your distributor pick-up , one needs ground ,
one needs 12volts or 5volts , one puts out a "Tach Signal" , some will not be used .
Your TPS Sensor will have to be supplied with 5volts from MS , it also
needs a ground and has an "output" wire .
The Coolant and Intake Air Temp sensors have to be grounded by MS and
each has an output wire to MS .
You probably have wiring for a "Heated 02 Sensor" you need to know which wire
goes to what so that you can hook-up your New Wide Band 02 Sensor .
You need to find the power supply wires for your injectors .
You need a factory sevice manual with wiring schematics to identify these and other wires .
...................Jim
-
shadowplane676
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:29 am
Jim -
A "Wiring Harness Kit" does not include connectors for every thing on your particular engine .
- very true, i aquired that to aid in wiring simplification and troubleshooting
Hopefully , since your 2 engines are similar , you can use your original
wiring harness and distributor , you need to check carefully to see if the
distributors are physically interchangeable .
- im pretty sure they are, if not ill have to do some digging on the 6-wire connector
You will have to cut off the plugs to your stock ECM and identify all the
wires by color and function so that you can connect your MS to
the appropriate Sensors , etc.
this is where the harness kit comes in handy, the ECM has one 60-pin connector.
There is a wire that goes to your ignition module that fires the coil .
- is there? the coil has only 2 wires going to a can-type coil. desnt this just charge the coil between spark events?
There are wires from your distributor pick-up , one needs ground ,
one needs 12volts or 5volts , one puts out a "Tach Signal" , some will not be used .
Your TPS Sensor will have to be supplied with 5volts from MS , it also
needs a ground and has an "output" wire .
The Coolant and Intake Air Temp sensors have to be grounded by MS and
each has an output wire to MS .
- true enough, i do have some wiring scematics in the haynes manual, ill look and see if those are adequate
You probably have wiring for a "Heated 02 Sensor" you need to know which wire
goes to what so that you can hook-up your New Wide Band 02 Sensor .
You need to find the power supply wires for your injectors .
- it is a 4 wire heated O2, and on the note of a wideband O2 - its kinda expensive, is in necessary or just easier on the setup?
Quotes = red
P.S. thank you for taking time to answer and help me out. it is most appreciated.
A "Wiring Harness Kit" does not include connectors for every thing on your particular engine .
- very true, i aquired that to aid in wiring simplification and troubleshooting
Hopefully , since your 2 engines are similar , you can use your original
wiring harness and distributor , you need to check carefully to see if the
distributors are physically interchangeable .
- im pretty sure they are, if not ill have to do some digging on the 6-wire connector
You will have to cut off the plugs to your stock ECM and identify all the
wires by color and function so that you can connect your MS to
the appropriate Sensors , etc.
this is where the harness kit comes in handy, the ECM has one 60-pin connector.
There is a wire that goes to your ignition module that fires the coil .
- is there? the coil has only 2 wires going to a can-type coil. desnt this just charge the coil between spark events?
There are wires from your distributor pick-up , one needs ground ,
one needs 12volts or 5volts , one puts out a "Tach Signal" , some will not be used .
Your TPS Sensor will have to be supplied with 5volts from MS , it also
needs a ground and has an "output" wire .
The Coolant and Intake Air Temp sensors have to be grounded by MS and
each has an output wire to MS .
- true enough, i do have some wiring scematics in the haynes manual, ill look and see if those are adequate
You probably have wiring for a "Heated 02 Sensor" you need to know which wire
goes to what so that you can hook-up your New Wide Band 02 Sensor .
You need to find the power supply wires for your injectors .
- it is a 4 wire heated O2, and on the note of a wideband O2 - its kinda expensive, is in necessary or just easier on the setup?
Quotes = red
P.S. thank you for taking time to answer and help me out. it is most appreciated.
If you do have to use the new distributor , make sure you also have a
Schematic that identifies all the functions and colors .
It is very unlikely that your coil is controlled directly from the ECM .
If you can't find a separate Ignition Module ,
it is probably built inside the Distributor .
When you study the wiring schematics it should become
obvious where the Coil is grounded ,
the ground is switched on and off by the Module ,
the Positive side of the coil goes to the Ignition Switch .
When the ground "breaks" contact the coil will spark .
In my opinion , a wide Band 02 is mandatory .
A Narrow Band 02 just acts like an on/off switch and is only usefull
between around 14 to 1 and 15.5 to 1 .
It can get you dialed-in at light throttle sorta kinda close ,
but they are completely unacceptable for tuning at anything higher than
70 kPa (about 3/4 throttle) , above that the engine needs to be richer ,
and you need to know EXACTLY how much richer .
Even if you were very experienced with tuning engines ,
you'd still just be guessing .
Also , if you expect to get decent gas mileage ,
you can only tune your engine lean with a Wide Band 02 .
Check out the attached picture :
They are not that expensive when you consider the amout
of time and aggravation one will save you ,
not to mention making it much easier to troubleshoot your entire setup .
I paid $200 for mine you can get one here :
http://www.diyautotune.com/
It also has 2 outputs so you can run a cheapo LED Meter on your dash ,
it's about $30 at most auto parts stores , made by AutoGage , it's the
ElCheapo Line from Auto Meter .
It's way faster than the gauge in MegaTune and you don't have to take
your eyes off the road to read it , worth every penny .
The Meter takes exactly one volt for full scale Rich .
...................Jim
Schematic that identifies all the functions and colors .
It is very unlikely that your coil is controlled directly from the ECM .
If you can't find a separate Ignition Module ,
it is probably built inside the Distributor .
When you study the wiring schematics it should become
obvious where the Coil is grounded ,
the ground is switched on and off by the Module ,
the Positive side of the coil goes to the Ignition Switch .
When the ground "breaks" contact the coil will spark .
In my opinion , a wide Band 02 is mandatory .
A Narrow Band 02 just acts like an on/off switch and is only usefull
between around 14 to 1 and 15.5 to 1 .
It can get you dialed-in at light throttle sorta kinda close ,
but they are completely unacceptable for tuning at anything higher than
70 kPa (about 3/4 throttle) , above that the engine needs to be richer ,
and you need to know EXACTLY how much richer .
Even if you were very experienced with tuning engines ,
you'd still just be guessing .
Also , if you expect to get decent gas mileage ,
you can only tune your engine lean with a Wide Band 02 .
Check out the attached picture :
They are not that expensive when you consider the amout
of time and aggravation one will save you ,
not to mention making it much easier to troubleshoot your entire setup .
I paid $200 for mine you can get one here :
http://www.diyautotune.com/
It also has 2 outputs so you can run a cheapo LED Meter on your dash ,
it's about $30 at most auto parts stores , made by AutoGage , it's the
ElCheapo Line from Auto Meter .
It's way faster than the gauge in MegaTune and you don't have to take
your eyes off the road to read it , worth every penny .
The Meter takes exactly one volt for full scale Rich .
...................Jim