Can't get idle below 12.5:1 AFR on Turbo'd 95 Cobra!

For discussing MicroSquirt (TM) configuration and tuning of fuel parameters (including idle valves, etc.).
Forum rules
Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Jedrik
Helpful Squirter
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:07 am
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Post by Jedrik »

My consern with the stock computer running the fuel pump was because a typical (old school I guess) setup has a fuel presure regulator that senses manifold vacume. This way the fuel rail gets less pressure at idle.
This alows the injector open time to be larger at idle for better control.

If your stock computer has no way of knowing engine load it may be running full pressure all the time giving you trouble.. or even some random pressure if the MAF signal is getting noise.

You could probably still work around this though. I also encourage you to contemplate the injector open time more...
:-)
cuda6pak
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am
Location: TN

Post by cuda6pak »

Jedrik wrote:My consern with the stock computer running the fuel pump was because a typical (old school I guess) setup has a fuel presure regulator that senses manifold vacume. This way the fuel rail gets less pressure at idle.
This alows the injector open time to be larger at idle for better control.

If your stock computer has no way of knowing engine load it may be running full pressure all the time giving you trouble.. or even some random pressure if the MAF signal is getting noise.

You could probably still work around this though. I also encourage you to contemplate the injector open time more...
:-)
I have a boost referenced Kirban AFPR on it and it's rock solid. I also have an electric fuel pressure gauge. It's turned up to 41psi with the vacuum unhooked...

The thing I don't understand about the injector open time is that you said it would affect all parameters across the whole range. If I lean or rich out any part of the VE tables outside of idle it is quite a noticeabl difference, not like it is at idle where it seems like it barely does anything...
Jedrik
Helpful Squirter
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:07 am
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Post by Jedrik »

here is why open time is most critical at idle.

lets say you have a maximum pulse width of 8ms at full throttle.
With open time of 1ms then 7ms is the actual time fuel is injected (theoreticaly, given the actual open time is really 1ms)

now if you change the open time to .9 ms then MegaSquirt would calculate an injection time of 7.9 ms. About 1% diference.

On the other hand, take the case of idle were you might have a pulse of 1.3 ms. changing to .9 ms open time would give a pulse of 1.2 ms. That is about 8% less (leaner).

You can imagine if you had the inj open time set equal to the pulse required for idle then you could have an idle VE of zero and still get fuel! Dont try this. :!:
Make sense? so having an over long open time would make the idle VE seem insencitive to adjustment.

Not that I am saing that is your problem, just something to think about.
So for a test, try a shorter open time and see if you can get the idle AFR were you want.

But don't get paranoid about finding the "true" open time. I found engine testing and scope testing gave contradictory numbers. It is all relativity in the end.
MegaScott
MegaSquirt Guru
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Seattle, Washington USA
Contact:

Post by MegaScott »

Hey Jedrick, I find you and I have somthing in common, I too have black wiper blades. :lol:

Anyway, The stock Ford ECU does not control the fuel pressure on that model. I suspect the Stock computer is not geting the proper signals to be able to control the idle air properly, whether it be the air temp sensor or the Mass air sensor, or the PIP signal, or the VSS signal. The 95 Cobra has a pretty sophisticated idle scheme in a feeble attempt to remedy years of idle stability problems on the Ford. My prognosis is that due to outsourcing, the factory really has no control over the code, and since the firmware vendor is not responsible for the problems, the code never gets fixed and the car never really idles properly. Sadly this is a systemic problem, not only at Ford but at virtually all the Manufactureres where the firmware is outsourced to (seemingly) save a few bucks.

On my very first Megasquirt install, I too thought as Cuda6pak, "do a piggyback, It can't be that hard?" as I got into it I found the more things I had control over with the Megasquirt the better, The stock EEC goes off and does it's own thing, and often there is no rhyme or reason, it just does it that way. With Megasquirt the idle can be precisely controlled using the PWM output. Now with Megasquirt controlling the idle you have just one more wire to run, to the fuel pump relay control, and now you can unplug your stock EEC forever.
cuda6pak
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am
Location: TN

Post by cuda6pak »

MegaScott wrote:Hey Jedrick, I find you and I have somthing in common, I too have black wiper blades. :lol:

Anyway, The stock Ford ECU does not control the fuel pressure on that model. I suspect the Stock computer is not geting the proper signals to be able to control the idle air properly, whether it be the air temp sensor or the Mass air sensor, or the PIP signal, or the VSS signal. The 95 Cobra has a pretty sophisticated idle scheme in a feeble attempt to remedy years of idle stability problems on the Ford. My prognosis is that due to outsourcing, the factory really has no control over the code, and since the firmware vendor is not responsible for the problems, the code never gets fixed and the car never really idles properly. Sadly this is a systemic problem, not only at Ford but at virtually all the Manufactureres where the firmware is outsourced to (seemingly) save a few bucks.

On my very first Megasquirt install, I too thought as Cuda6pak, "do a piggyback, It can't be that hard?" as I got into it I found the more things I had control over with the Megasquirt the better, The stock EEC goes off and does it's own thing, and often there is no rhyme or reason, it just does it that way. With Megasquirt the idle can be precisely controlled using the PWM output. Now with Megasquirt controlling the idle you have just one more wire to run, to the fuel pump relay control, and now you can unplug your stock EEC forever.

I think the main reason I was staying away from the PWM idle control is because I thought you had to add onto the board and I wasn't comfortable with that at first (I had Jerry build my unit). Then after re-soldering and de-soldering resistors a bunch of times I'm more confident.

Also, I did not want to have to tear apart my DIYAutotune wiring harness to add another wire, I'm not even sure how to add a wire into the plug...I think I may have to look more into this thing...


Jedrick - Ahhh, I understand now....I will have to play around with the injector open time and see what happens.



I also noticed today that part throttle is around 13:1 while cruising is still pig rich as well at 12:1 or richer.....

I did turn it up to 6lbs and damn, what a beast! (Still below 11.5 AFR so I should be pretty safe).
cuda6pak
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am
Location: TN

Post by cuda6pak »

Small update (not good):

I wired the fuel pump into the MS and off the stock ECU. And now the car runs like "crap". There is a horrible miss/rich spot kind of between idle and part throttle like when I'm shifting gears.

Also, I can't floor the car at all now, it starts missing/bucking really bad when I go full throttle with it, no matter what the RPM's.

I know this can't possibly be because I switched the fuel pump to MS........I'm thinking maybe the plugs are all fouled, not too sure. Because literally 24 hours before that I drove around in it and it was running fantastic. Full throttle, part throttle were all smooth and crisp with no hiccups.


I also tried playing with the injector open time to no avail. Put it down to .9ms and no noticeable difference at all.

I also noticed my coolant temp was not reading on the MS. But that shouldn't affect anything since I don't have warmup enrichments, right?

I also tried setting up AFR tables. I went to the "settings.ini" file of car1 and unset the narrowband and set the Innovate LC1. Now, when I change the fuel tables to read the Target AFR table. Right when I go iinto the Target AFR table and click on the first box it locks up. I tried over and over and over and it locks up every time.
MegaScott
MegaSquirt Guru
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Seattle, Washington USA
Contact:

Post by MegaScott »

cuda6pak wrote:Small update (not good):

I wired the fuel pump into the MS and off the stock ECU. And now the car runs like "crap". There is a horrible miss/rich spot kind of between idle and part throttle like when I'm shifting gears.

Also, I can't floor the car at all now, it starts missing/bucking really bad when I go full throttle with it, no matter what the RPM's.

I know this can't possibly be because I switched the fuel pump to MS........I'm thinking maybe the plugs are all fouled, not too sure. Because literally 24 hours before that I drove around in it and it was running fantastic. Full throttle, part throttle were all smooth and crisp with no hiccups.


I also tried playing with the injector open time to no avail. Put it down to .9ms and no noticeable difference at all.

I also noticed my coolant temp was not reading on the MS. But that shouldn't affect anything since I don't have warmup enrichments, right?

I also tried setting up AFR tables. I went to the "settings.ini" file of car1 and unset the narrowband and set the Innovate LC1. Now, when I change the fuel tables to read the Target AFR table. Right when I go iinto the Target AFR table and click on the first box it locks up. I tried over and over and over and it locks up every time.
Ouch, my head hurts when I read that, hey at least it still runs?

Did you do anything else? like load in new firmware, or accisentally change a spark setting? I like to go through the "Review mode" when something like this happens, and usually I find the culprit.

Do you all of a sudden have no coolant temp, or have you been running without one all along? No coolant temp and the temp value goes to max right? There's lots of stuff that rely on that sensor to work properly in order for Megasquirt to work right.

Are you using Megatune 2.25 Beta, or final?
Jedrik
Helpful Squirter
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:07 am
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Post by Jedrik »

That is curious.

Could you post a datalog?

With MSII at least, coolant temp also effects the timing and the accel enrichment (as well as the warmup enrichment and start PW)
cuda6pak
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am
Location: TN

Post by cuda6pak »

MegaScott wrote:
cuda6pak wrote:Small update (not good):

I wired the fuel pump into the MS and off the stock ECU. And now the car runs like "crap". There is a horrible miss/rich spot kind of between idle and part throttle like when I'm shifting gears.

Also, I can't floor the car at all now, it starts missing/bucking really bad when I go full throttle with it, no matter what the RPM's.

I know this can't possibly be because I switched the fuel pump to MS........I'm thinking maybe the plugs are all fouled, not too sure. Because literally 24 hours before that I drove around in it and it was running fantastic. Full throttle, part throttle were all smooth and crisp with no hiccups.


I also tried playing with the injector open time to no avail. Put it down to .9ms and no noticeable difference at all.

I also noticed my coolant temp was not reading on the MS. But that shouldn't affect anything since I don't have warmup enrichments, right?

I also tried setting up AFR tables. I went to the "settings.ini" file of car1 and unset the narrowband and set the Innovate LC1. Now, when I change the fuel tables to read the Target AFR table. Right when I go iinto the Target AFR table and click on the first box it locks up. I tried over and over and over and it locks up every time.
Ouch, my head hurts when I read that, hey at least it still runs?

Did you do anything else? like load in new firmware, or accisentally change a spark setting? I like to go through the "Review mode" when something like this happens, and usually I find the culprit.

Do you all of a sudden have no coolant temp, or have you been running without one all along? No coolant temp and the temp value goes to max right? There's lots of stuff that rely on that sensor to work properly in order for Megasquirt to work right.

Are you using Megatune 2.25 Beta, or final?

Well I did a few other things but returned everything back to where it had been, tune and all, and this is how it runs.

Quick scenario of what I did....started car, fuel pressure kept going to 0 and back to 42 while trying to warmup/idle. So I figured I'd wire the fuel pump to the MS instead. Unplugged the computer, wired the fuel pump to the MS. Started car and noticed it wouldn't idle, unscrewed the air adjustment (allen screw under rubber plug on TB) and got it to idle. Also changed injector open time to .9ms Drove car home, noticed it wouldn't take to full throttle well. Got home, realized I left the stock computer unplugged. Plugged it back in, car idled very high, screwed the allen head screw all the way back in again and it was idling like it had always been. Took car out, still ran bad. Did a few other things, messed with VE tables, and then reloaded the tune I had on before that ran perfect, still didn't work.


I would like to set those AFR target tables up but it keeps freezing on me.

The coolant sensor had worked before after I had the turbo kit on. I am not sure when it quit, I only noticed it had quit on me right when I gave up working on it last night. It was reading a solid -40F, not max. Perhaps that is my problem? I traced the wires and couldn't find anything cut or burned through...

I am running 2.25 final.
cuda6pak
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am
Location: TN

Post by cuda6pak »

Jedrik wrote:That is curious.

Could you post a datalog?

With MSII at least, coolant temp also effects the timing and the accel enrichment (as well as the warmup enrichment and start PW)
Don't scold me too bad, but I don't know how to datalog. I have yet to do one :oops:

I've only briefly read up on it, and I believe I need a different program, MSTweak perhaps? I will check tonight or tomorrow.

I am moving 120 miles away tomorrow and saturday so I won't have too much time to play with it.
Post Reply