new microsquirt?

[dontz125]

the module by itself has little value

This statement is incredible. Under the current business model as I understand it, for small vendors the MODULE IS THE LICENSE.

Take the comment above in its correct context - the module, by itself, will not run a car without additional hardware. Its what is added that is what makes it different from the generic Microsquirt. Hell, one could take just a module and add header/free wires and a BUD case for $10.00 and sell the setup for less than a microsquirt+harness and still make a nice profit. I personally do not see the value-add to something like this - its just someone else's version of the same thing.

Whether the module in a soup-can with a trailer connector is a viable product was not my concern. My point is that the inherent license of the module is what allows ME to sell anything at all!

Discussing your license agreement request, if I recall correctly (forgive me if I have this wrong, I may be way off track here - I have many such requests), we asked a rough idea on how many units you envision or plan on selling, and IIRC the number was 10 units or something like this - total. Realize that for a license agreement we have to go to an attorney and have an agreement drawn up which is not inexpensive, then wait for the ROI back on 10 units - by anyone's math we (B&G) lose money on this.

I fully appreciate that - 10 units total, for ever and ever, would be a waste of my time and effort as well. The discussion last year got a little muddled; 10 was my low-ball of what I might expect the first year, with the full intent and expectation of significant increases going forward.

The whole "license agreement" thing has been a complete nightmare for us. We have had countless people request an agreement, we go thru the motions on our end and have it drawn up, then nothing happens at all after it is in place. We have been burned so many times I cannot count, and this is our own fault for being too liberal on what it takes to obtain an agreement. ... we are not going to lay out a $$grand+ in lawyer fees to get a license agreement drawn up just to sell 10 units. Not going to happen. Unfortunately, this is what has happened in the past with agreements more times than I can count - and the vast majority of times the sales never happen.

Forgive me, but this has been the single most baffling aspect of the discussion since I approached you fellows last year. I fully admit my knowledge of this aspect of business law is weak, but - since when does the license owner pay the freight in a licensing / franchising agreement?! If it costs $1000 for you to draw up the papers for ME to start MY business and make ME some money, then it should bloody well be ME who pays that $1000! The whole notion of trying to recoup legal start-up fees on the basis of royalties seems (polite, polite) ... odd ... to me. If you license a fellow to build and sell something with a market value of $500, he has to sell 50 of those units for YOU to break even - if the fees are $2000, he has to sell 100. If he goes tits-up prior to this, then yes - you get burned!

That list of licensee requirements - if I may be so bold, it might be a very good idea to clean it up and make it into a page linked to the FAQ and Copyright pages. "So you want to be a MegaSquirt Licensee - A Primer."

I've ranted on this a few times - I firmly believe that the better solution for the "mom'n'pop" niche level vendor is the one-size-fits-all general license, with a per-use / per unit fee. Concept and scenario: your lawyer draws up some boiler plate; because of the general-ness, it'll probably cost MORE than a specific license - call it $2500. Over the course of the next year, 6 people apply for the new license, pay their non-refundable $100 "I'm serious" fee to fill out the application and have their design reviewed - you want to bet THAT doesn't cut down on the tire-kickers? They have combined sales of 107 units, each unit requiring a $25 per-use license fee. You have now brought in (6x $100 + 107x $25 = ) $3275 in fees, sufficient to cover the lawyer, a couple of modules to donate to various FSAE teams, and some steaks and beer for the annual meeting. Everyone is happy. As time progresses, more people apply and more per-use licenses are sold; as the initial legal cost has been covered, these funds can go to cover other things - like the V4.0 mother board, so desperately needed.

Addressing your system that is "simpler" - simpler is a real tangible feature that I agree is a real feature

The unit I proposed last year was a two-channel replacement / upgrade ignition-only unit based on the MS1/Extra, intended for older carb'd bikes. It is SIMPLER - no injection drivers or flyback circuits, no IAT, CLT, or O2. Engine load is by TPS or MAP (selectable), one external sensor. Two on-board BIP drivers firing wasted spark. The MicroSquirt and / or module would be over-kill and over-priced - the pricing for such devices is currently limited by competition, but by using the MS1-based design I can come in REAL close to my competitor, with significant advantages in being on this side of the ocean and being able to use the MV and TS software packages. Even with full 'dealer' level discounts on the uSM, I'd still be the better part of $75-100 more expensive than my competitor.

On the other side, if someone wants to make the exact same Microsquirt by using a module and ampseal but with a different color case case, then this is NOT a differing product at all (don't laugh, I was asked this a while back, they were serious).

- Bruce

Actually, as ridiculous as it sounds (and I agree that it is), I would suggest that this is ALLOWED under the "buy a module and put it in your own enclosure" inherent license of the module. Unless of course I'm right out to lunch on the provisions of that license.

[Bruce Bowling]

Whether the module in a soup-can with a trailer connector is a viable product was not my concern. My point is that the inherent license of the module is what allows ME to sell anything at all!

Absolutely - once you purchase the module, you can do anything you want with it, its your property. The issue here on the thread was that the new microsquirt version pricing makes the module obsolete, and I say that it does not because the new microsquirt targets a general use audience and the module can be made for specific, value-add use.

Yes, people can take a module and throw on a connector and compete head-to-head with Microsquirt. Not sure why one would do this - unless the new creation provided some functionality that Microsquirt did not offer, or there was a considerable price advantage (which I think you are addressing for your license request).

Here is something you may want to do before asking for a license agreement (strong hint) - first go to one of the resellers (like Diyautotune, etc) and pass the idea by them to see if they think it is viable. Then come back and ask for a license agreement. The MS resellers are upstanding and will not steal your creation (have them sign an NDA if it makes sense or to make you feel better) and more importantly they will give you guidance on how to proceed - and are always looking for a good product and will help promote it to be a success. They know all of the markets better than B&G and can give real feedback. Then when you come to us you can say that you have a reseller all set to handle the sales and support (or at least have talked to one of them about the idea) - then we (B&G) know that this is the real deal.

One thing I will say - since you have pursuing this idea for a while, and have used the modules to make a product and test it out, you are further along than 98% of the other people out there wanting a license. In other words, email me offline...

- Bruce

[Matt Cramer]

Also, contact us if you want to buy the modules in bulk - we've had people buy them in quantity before, and you can arrange for a volume discount on them.

[Bernard Fife]

Actually, as ridiculous as it sounds (and I agree that it is), I would suggest that this is ALLOWED under the "buy a module and put it in your own enclosure" inherent license of the module. Unless of course I'm right out to lunch on the provisions of that license.

Dontz125,

Well, we have said several times that this was never the intent, we don't support the idea. But now you want us, against our stated wishes, to make it possible for you to do that and make some money, by having everyone else pay more for their Microsquirt? That isn't going to happen.

You can put a module in your own enclosure, and use whatever connector you want, and try and make some money. The license on the module doesn't prevent that. But the economics will, and that's not a bad effect.

Lance.

[grippo]

The reality of licenses is that, ever since we started, we get many license requests every year from all over the world. They have all been for the same reason - someone wants to make a still cheaper version. Never a really better feature, or an improvement in the state of the art, just cheaper. Whenever we have granted licenses one of two things happens: they either disappear or we get a small payment one time and then they disappear. Over the years we have made a grand total of a few 100 dollars on licenses. What really galls me is that many people plead poverty due to high import duties, poor country, whatever, then they tell us they plan to charge $600 or more per unit.

[dontz125]

Hi, folks.

I will step back for a moment, and concede that my thoughts and arguments in this thread have been going in a few directions at once; I have more than one plan in mind to attack this market opportunity, and they slopped together a bit in the course of these past few posts.

Back to the discussion at hand:

Bruce: In the interest of full disclosure, truth in advertising, and avoiding lies of omission, I must admit that - despite having been granted explicit permission to do so - I have not yet produced a prototype. Shortly after our discussions, my health took a dive, and my plans for world domination had to be shelved. I expect to be able to mobilize my resources in the next few weeks, and have thus re-opened these discussions. I hope this does not critically affect your opinion of my viability; I will of course understand it if you require the presentation of a functional prototype before any licensing discussions go further. As for market research, I had actually passed this by Matt; IIRC, he mentioned that they got the occasional inquiry for ignition-only systems, but that it wasn't really their forte, and he didn't have a quantity to suggest. He didn't want to just pick a number out of his hat, which I appreciated. (As for an NDA, I've just splashed my magnum opus all over the internet ... [laugh])

Matt: I saw the pricing you folks offer for bulk orders, and I have to say that it is significantly different from what B&G mentioned during our discussions back in November. Definitely a topic for clarification.

Al: You have my deepest sympathies. As an engineer and would-be businessman, I can think of nothing more irritating than having my ideas cloned or undersold. (Before anyone accuses me of base hypocrisy, note that much of my diatribe of 1:21pm today is dedicated to the notion that the licensee should be paying the licensing fees; the pay-as-you-go license is meant to spread the legal costs over several would-be vendors and so increase the fees remitted to B&G)

[PARUS]

Are the any update when Microsquirt V3.0 will be available ?

[grippo]

Should be this week. The microsquirts are ready, just waiting to finish the harnesses.

[PARUS]

Should be this week. The microsquirts are ready, just waiting to finish the harnesses.

Thank you...

[PARUS]

Should be this week. The microsquirts are ready, just waiting to finish the harnesses.

Thank you...

Keep us posted about progress )