Hey CNG1, not having a go, and congratulations on getting it to work!
The BMW 16v head conversion has been done many times. Here is an overview of the 8V head conversion, the 16v head is easier to do due to valve positioning/size.
http://www.users.qwest.net/%7Eshuko/
Here is a look at another, (stupidly complicated) approach to the same conversion, using a gear drive for the cams rather than a dry belt conversion, the way I am doing it.
http://www.drjing.com/Mini/TechFiles/BMWHead.htm
And another way, using a chain drive like the BMW does.
http://www.miniman.com.au/bmw.htm
So you can see it can be done using a BMW 16v head. I have got the head mounted to the block, water passages modded to line up, custom 72mm pistons made with greater compression height to avoid having to deck the block, (using a short stroke south african 1071 crank), with piston cut outs and built to take big boost and nitrous/methanol injection.
In aswer to your question, why not a 7 or 8 port head, the answer is price...
7 port ex AKM head complete is now £1500+.
Arden 8 port is a £3000+ prospect by the time you have the new custom cam, cooper s rods etc.
The KAD 16v...don't even go there. Jack Knight, looking at £2400 for the head alone.
None of these heads have big enough combusition chambers for turbo use either. Also, a bonus is the K1100 head is ally and can stand more advance/boost than the 7 port iron head.
The 16v heads from JK/KAD use totally inapropriate cams for a turbo engine, the K1100 cams are perfect high lift short duration, (256 degrees) cams proven to be good for 300 bhp + (Yes, you read that right).
These guys turbo the K1100 engines for bikes and get stupendous power and torque from them, I am using their turbo and exhaust manifold, modded to fit the mini engine bay.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmwK1000.html
The K1100 bike head cost me less than a stage 1 unleaded A series head. They will rev to 9k with no problems.
I am now sorting the cam drive out using a mini cam belt kit and the ford cut off cams with cam drives. Then only the oil feed and drainage to sort out, just a matter of tapping off the main oil gallery to pressure feed the head.
Also looking into dry sumping the engine and having a seperate oil system for the box, running a pump off the mini's layshaft and using pinto spray bars to oil the gears. This means the inevitable box failures won't kill the engine and I can remove the original cam and pump altogether, saving more weight.
Target is 250 bhp on pump gas. Plus nitrous using alcohol as enrichment fuel for this. Enough to run high 12's, the D class 5 port turbo record is currently 13.4 sec.
Mini 3 Port Injection
Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Re: Mini 3 Port Injection
If you use a K series engine, it is no longer a mini! The honda engine is too slow. Yes, you did read that right.cng1 wrote:"
> I have gone for the BMW 16v head conversion instead now, 8 ports....
How the hell have you got the 16v head on the a-series block? Why have
you done that rather than going to a 7 or 8-port conversion or for that
matter to drop a K-series or honda engine in.
Posted by email.
They are horrible to drive, you can't get the gearing right and they lack torque. At the previous years D class race, Dave Coxons all steel 5 port turbo (street driven, stock box, 145 tyres!) beat every honda conversion by a healthy margin running sub 14 secs run after run.
You also end up with an ugly extended nose, or a clubman front end, and carlos fandango track increase. You also have to use 13" wheels, yuk! These ruin the ride and handling of the mini.
I drove watson rally mini and it was not nice. Nasty tiny rock hard coil springs, front heavy, massive understeer. It also costs in excess of 5 k for the conversion.
The K series is a better bet, but again, not really a mini and the same track, wheel and long nose issues apply.
Mini 3 Port Injection
"mini1071s" wrote:
> The BMW 16v head conversion has been done many times. Here is an overview of the 8V head conversion, the 16v head is easier to do due to valve positioning/size.
Ahh, the K1 conversion, for some reason I thought you meant a BINI
head.
> 7 port ex AKM head complete is now £1500+.
Only £1000 if you're prepared to do any porting yourself.
> The K1100 bike head cost me less than a stage 1 unleaded A series head. They will rev to 9k with no problems.
How much was the machining if you don't mind me asking. Just trying to
work out if it's worth considering as an option rather than dropping
a whole engine in.
Posted by email.
> The BMW 16v head conversion has been done many times. Here is an overview of the 8V head conversion, the 16v head is easier to do due to valve positioning/size.
Ahh, the K1 conversion, for some reason I thought you meant a BINI
head.
> 7 port ex AKM head complete is now £1500+.
Only £1000 if you're prepared to do any porting yourself.
> The K1100 bike head cost me less than a stage 1 unleaded A series head. They will rev to 9k with no problems.
How much was the machining if you don't mind me asking. Just trying to
work out if it's worth considering as an option rather than dropping
a whole engine in.
Posted by email.
Hi, the only machining that needed doing (for the head), was cutting down the cams off the pinto engine, decking the block (after filling the holes with threaded cast iron, angle grinding the plugs off, very carefully and moving the water passages with a dremel), the same as a normal block skim, £50.
I cut the cams down using a friend with a lathe and I just used a pillar drill and spirit level (!) to drill the new studs for the head then tapped them using the BMW head gasket as a template. Three of the studs didn't need moving at all!
I was quoted 1500 for an assembled head, and closer to 1700 for a fully ported head. 1000 for a bare casting. Maybe they have come to their senses!
How would you use the whole engine? Be a major hassle adapting the crank to the block, and you would get more torque out of a 1275 mini engine. I am only using the 1071 crank as I have a perversion for high winding mini engines and over square engines respond better to nitrous. Also, the bigger bore lends itself better to fueling with methanol as the primary fuel, which I would like to try in another develpment engine or I could just swap the fuel rails and maps over and run a second tank for methanol, which I will have anyway as I am using it for the enrichment fuel for the nitrous system to reduce the cylinder temps.
I am developing the methanol nitrous kit and testing it on an expendable 998!
http://www.nitrous.info.
I should add that I am using a electric water pump to give more room for the belts and better control water temps. This can also run on after the engine is turned off to cool the engine after high boost thrashings.
I cut the cams down using a friend with a lathe and I just used a pillar drill and spirit level (!) to drill the new studs for the head then tapped them using the BMW head gasket as a template. Three of the studs didn't need moving at all!
I was quoted 1500 for an assembled head, and closer to 1700 for a fully ported head. 1000 for a bare casting. Maybe they have come to their senses!
How would you use the whole engine? Be a major hassle adapting the crank to the block, and you would get more torque out of a 1275 mini engine. I am only using the 1071 crank as I have a perversion for high winding mini engines and over square engines respond better to nitrous. Also, the bigger bore lends itself better to fueling with methanol as the primary fuel, which I would like to try in another develpment engine or I could just swap the fuel rails and maps over and run a second tank for methanol, which I will have anyway as I am using it for the enrichment fuel for the nitrous system to reduce the cylinder temps.
I am developing the methanol nitrous kit and testing it on an expendable 998!
http://www.nitrous.info.
I should add that I am using a electric water pump to give more room for the belts and better control water temps. This can also run on after the engine is turned off to cool the engine after high boost thrashings.
Mini 3 Port Injection
"mini1071s" wrote:
> How would you use the whole engine?
I meant by doing a whole engine swap for a K-series. I've already
got a carbon flip front and a spare set of bike TBs so it would be easy
to get most of it under the bonnet.
Posted by email.
> How would you use the whole engine?
I meant by doing a whole engine swap for a K-series. I've already
got a carbon flip front and a spare set of bike TBs so it would be easy
to get most of it under the bonnet.
Posted by email.
I do remember a mini van that got everything under the bonnet. It can be done with the original subframe. The 16v mini forum is useful. I considered this option first. The reason I didn't go for it is the class rules change in hillclimbing, (my chosen feild of comp), in that if I change the block, I will be up against hyabusa engined kit cars, which I have no chance of beating! Some would even have me in a sort of sports libre class against ex f1 cars!
As it is I can enter the up to 1400cc road car class with a turbo 1000cc engine. With 250 + bhp, I should clean up, if I can improve my driving.
As it is I can enter the up to 1400cc road car class with a turbo 1000cc engine. With 250 + bhp, I should clean up, if I can improve my driving.
Latest update on my mini installation. Over the weekend I swapped the lambda sensors from the inner (rich) cylinders to the outer (lean) cylinders. The results are showing that I need to run considerably richer than I have been to date. In general it looks like the lean cylinders will run an extra 3:1 leaner ie 16:1 vs 13:1 although at WOT in the midrange the cap closes down somewhat, opening back up as the revs increase.
Whilst richening it up isn't a problem it does make me think that running a wet manifold may well be worthwhile if only from an economy standpoint. Alternatively I'm wondering if it would be possible to run even more squirts per cycle than I current am running.
Whilst richening it up isn't a problem it does make me think that running a wet manifold may well be worthwhile if only from an economy standpoint. Alternatively I'm wondering if it would be possible to run even more squirts per cycle than I current am running.
hi there, let me add my experiences:
Ok, let me explain: Austin Healey Sprite, A-engine, siamese ports, supercharged blowing in a TBI unit, throttle is upstream (in front of blower).
I can drive the car, what happens is this: I start the engine it idles reasonable, after a few minutes the idle starts to get unstable, more and more.
When you look at the log you see the MAP fluctuating, and short after that the RPM as well. I thougt the spikes caused it, so I installed the Dave cap. I cannot see any spike anymore... So I tried a fuelfilter (no restrictor) in the MAP line to damper the MAP fluctuations, no result.
I thought the VE values in the table should be equal for the idle values. I altered the VE... no result.
One thing I have to mention, I use the Bosch auxiliar valve for extra air during warming up (no FIdle), maybe this could be clue, otherwise I do not know..
Maybe it is just a tuning issue (posted there by me some tiem ago), but I read a while ago about the MAP values in A-engine being very fluctuating..
Anyone?
Ok, let me explain: Austin Healey Sprite, A-engine, siamese ports, supercharged blowing in a TBI unit, throttle is upstream (in front of blower).
I can drive the car, what happens is this: I start the engine it idles reasonable, after a few minutes the idle starts to get unstable, more and more.
When you look at the log you see the MAP fluctuating, and short after that the RPM as well. I thougt the spikes caused it, so I installed the Dave cap. I cannot see any spike anymore... So I tried a fuelfilter (no restrictor) in the MAP line to damper the MAP fluctuations, no result.
I thought the VE values in the table should be equal for the idle values. I altered the VE... no result.
One thing I have to mention, I use the Bosch auxiliar valve for extra air during warming up (no FIdle), maybe this could be clue, otherwise I do not know..
Maybe it is just a tuning issue (posted there by me some tiem ago), but I read a while ago about the MAP values in A-engine being very fluctuating..
Anyone?
From what I can tell alot of you are missing a crucial aspect(or I'm being overly optimistic) of how to make the MS work w/ a siamese port. MS is an open source project meaning you are free to look at and modify the code as you wish. MS already supports 2 banks of injectors, or if you look at it right sequential injection for 2 injectors.
That being the case, I've looked over the code and injector sequencing code looks extremely easy to modify to support our particular problem. Normally 2 sequential injectors fire 1-2-1-2... we need 1-1-2-2-1-1-2-2. The trick at this point becomes the same as anyone else has run into. Injectors that can fire down to 1ms or so, and but still supply the fuel needed to run the motor up top. Some good low impedance 500cc injectors I think can handle this supply.
Has anyone even looked at injector code, and if so, what did you find? If you haven't, why not?
I should say that all I've done so far is read all about this, but shortly, i should be making a full attempt.
On a related note, are any of you using MS for ignition? Which way did you go? I'd like to eventially drop the dizzy completely, but for now, I think I'll be using MS for timing and the dizzy still for sequencing
That being the case, I've looked over the code and injector sequencing code looks extremely easy to modify to support our particular problem. Normally 2 sequential injectors fire 1-2-1-2... we need 1-1-2-2-1-1-2-2. The trick at this point becomes the same as anyone else has run into. Injectors that can fire down to 1ms or so, and but still supply the fuel needed to run the motor up top. Some good low impedance 500cc injectors I think can handle this supply.
Has anyone even looked at injector code, and if so, what did you find? If you haven't, why not?
I should say that all I've done so far is read all about this, but shortly, i should be making a full attempt.
On a related note, are any of you using MS for ignition? Which way did you go? I'd like to eventially drop the dizzy completely, but for now, I think I'll be using MS for timing and the dizzy still for sequencing
-
tobyanscombe
- MegaSquirt Newbie
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 3:09 pm
MrBell - I am running MSnEDIS at the moment which has replaced my dizzy - slight issue with the idle vac so currently running a 2d map till I can get down to a RR later this month.
I have often thought of the route that you outline - I have about 10 years of development experience behind me so am not phased by the code too much although like you, have not looked at it so far.
My initial thoughts are to go for a wet mani system using a Jenvy type TB just to get it running but I may go to the 7 port head next year just to make it a bit simpler...
Am over in Spain at the mo, but will take a long hard look when I return. However, I also need to do a few other things first such as sperm sensors for water and air and a dual LM-1 setup before I start the EFI route.
I have often thought of the route that you outline - I have about 10 years of development experience behind me so am not phased by the code too much although like you, have not looked at it so far.
My initial thoughts are to go for a wet mani system using a Jenvy type TB just to get it running but I may go to the 7 port head next year just to make it a bit simpler...
Am over in Spain at the mo, but will take a long hard look when I return. However, I also need to do a few other things first such as sperm sensors for water and air and a dual LM-1 setup before I start the EFI route.