The car is up and running. I think it's running pretty good! I'm doing something wrong with tuning, if the gas mileage is so lousy!
I got my MS finished up a couple of months ago, and been checking out the gas mileage, and after a couple of tank fill-ups, the gas mileage came out about 21 miles per gallon (and that's highway mileage (65-75mph-criuse rpm is around 3500rpm)!-I drive 60 miles a day on a fairly flat, with a good flowing highway). I was hoping for more like 25-30 miles/gal.
I changed the AFR to run at 16.5:1, ran a couple of tanks, and the mileage changed only to 22 mpg. This gas mileage is awful!
I don’t see any problems with the datalogs, and the car seems to run fine. Much better than the carb setup, but with lousy gas mileage? I can’t see ripping out the EFI system, I have $1500 and 100s of hours in it, but the car isn’t economical to run. At this point, I can’t say this MS project is a success!
Does anyone have any suggestions?
The setup is:
-'65 122 with a B21F/M41 (stocked, not modified normally aspirated engine [4-cyl 2100cc])
-LC-1 WBO2
-MS V2.2 running MSnS-extra (24s13) fuel only - tuning with MT2.25b514 and VEXME
-original '79 Bosch iginition setup from a 240
-Bosch 21lbs EFI injectors
-Volvo 850 Bosch TPS
-EGO crossover is set to 3.25v
-K&N air filter
I've checked the error on the odometer at around 3% fast, and the speedometer is around 5% slow. Which I find acceptable for a 40+ year old car.
I figured that a 122 weight (122 weight 2400 lbs vs 240 weight 3000 lbs), running EFI, and a WBO2 sensor would produce better fuel economy than the original K-jet setup (B21F with a M46 in a 240 gets about 25-28 mpg?).
Paul
Can't figure out my lousy gas mileage!
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Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
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mops
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1. how sure are your your WBO2 is calibrated properly ?
2. you said you try to run 16.5 afr, does it run any leaner than that (or do you get misfiers) ?
3. if you cant lean it out, richen it up, to 16.0 and even 15.5 in cruise areas... too lean mixture robs engine efficency.
4. whats the condition of ignition ? plugs fouled ? fresh ? get some fresh ones in and gap to MORE than recommended for better economy (but so you still have strong spark)
5. injectors.... when they had been cleaned recently ? it is possible they produce poor atomization, leading to excessive fuel consumption....
well... thats something to get you started. please update us. I have to say, my fuel economy didnt change much... i'm actually quite surprised to say it pretty much stayed the same.... however I havent finished tuning just yet.
2. you said you try to run 16.5 afr, does it run any leaner than that (or do you get misfiers) ?
3. if you cant lean it out, richen it up, to 16.0 and even 15.5 in cruise areas... too lean mixture robs engine efficency.
4. whats the condition of ignition ? plugs fouled ? fresh ? get some fresh ones in and gap to MORE than recommended for better economy (but so you still have strong spark)
5. injectors.... when they had been cleaned recently ? it is possible they produce poor atomization, leading to excessive fuel consumption....
well... thats something to get you started. please update us. I have to say, my fuel economy didnt change much... i'm actually quite surprised to say it pretty much stayed the same.... however I havent finished tuning just yet.
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd , 127k miles, short shift, MSII, V3/code 2.684/60-2 wheel/MT 2.25, LC-1 wbO2, ignitor module mod driving msd coil/, 3 pin Bosch PWC IAC mod
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LT401Vette
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jonfx4com
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"EGO crossover is set to 3.25v "
I think you should look at the ego configuration. With a wideband you dont have a crossover point you use the af ratio table. I could be misunderstanding what you are saying but it looks like you have a fundamental mistake. If I have it all wrong please accept my apology.
Jon
I think you should look at the ego configuration. With a wideband you dont have a crossover point you use the af ratio table. I could be misunderstanding what you are saying but it looks like you have a fundamental mistake. If I have it all wrong please accept my apology.
Jon
Hi,
When tuning for minimum fuel consumption what you are really trying to achieve is best brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC). Your car needs a certain hp number to roll along on the freeway. You are trying to achieve that with the least amount of fuel.
The AFR for lowest BSFC is engine dependent. On tests with aircraft engines, the lowest BSFC was achieved between 15.2 and 15.4 AFR. Leaner than that required MORE fuel to achieve a preset hp.
Also, when running lean, ignition advance plays a large role. Typically lean running requires relatively large ign. advance. If you are not running optimum advance for the lean AFR, you are not getting the possible hp out of the fuel.
Another issue is suspension and tires. I gained 10% efficiency on one of my cars just by having the car realigned with new tires.
Regards
When tuning for minimum fuel consumption what you are really trying to achieve is best brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC). Your car needs a certain hp number to roll along on the freeway. You are trying to achieve that with the least amount of fuel.
The AFR for lowest BSFC is engine dependent. On tests with aircraft engines, the lowest BSFC was achieved between 15.2 and 15.4 AFR. Leaner than that required MORE fuel to achieve a preset hp.
Also, when running lean, ignition advance plays a large role. Typically lean running requires relatively large ign. advance. If you are not running optimum advance for the lean AFR, you are not getting the possible hp out of the fuel.
Another issue is suspension and tires. I gained 10% efficiency on one of my cars just by having the car realigned with new tires.
Regards
1. how sure are your your WBO2 is calibrated properly ?
->Nope, haven't calibrated it since it was installed. Will recalibrate
2. you said you try to run 16.5 afr, does it run any leaner than that (or do you get misfiers) ?
->Seems to run fine at the 16.5afr, I could lean it up more.
3. if you cant lean it out, richen it up, to 16.0 and even 15.5 in cruise areas... too lean mixture robs engine efficency.
->I could richen up also, but where to start (leaner or richer??). Ran fine at 14.7 and 16.5? Same mpg at either.
4. whats the condition of ignition ? plugs fouled ? fresh ? get some fresh ones in and gap to MORE than recommended for better economy (but so you still have strong spark)
->Plugs were fine, but changed out with new plugs, cap, rotor. Resistance on the wires checked out good
5. injectors.... when they had been cleaned recently ? it is possible they produce poor atomization, leading to excessive fuel consumption....
-> I threw in a can of seafoam injection cleaner.
What sort of milage did you get with the carb setup?
->No previous mpg with the carb setup, the speedometer didn't work until I MS'd the car.
What cam/compression are you running?
->Stock Volvo cam(nothing special), engine was rebuilt prior to running the carb setup. Should I do a compression check of the engine??
"EGO crossover is set to 3.25v "
I think you should look at the ego configuration. With a wideband you dont have a crossover point you use the af ratio table. I could be misunderstanding what you are saying but it looks like you have a fundamental mistake. If I have it all wrong please accept my apology.
-> OK, this looks to be a major problem! How do I setup a WB02? I missed that completely. Where is this information?? In the Megamanual??
So, the EGO crossover is turned off with a wideband?? I need help big time with this!!!!
the lowest BSFC was achieved between 15.2 and 15.4 AFR
->Looks like I have my MS setup all wrong!! Previous post tell me to keep leaning it up!
Can someone please look at my msq, and give me some suggestions!!!
Paul
->Nope, haven't calibrated it since it was installed. Will recalibrate
2. you said you try to run 16.5 afr, does it run any leaner than that (or do you get misfiers) ?
->Seems to run fine at the 16.5afr, I could lean it up more.
3. if you cant lean it out, richen it up, to 16.0 and even 15.5 in cruise areas... too lean mixture robs engine efficency.
->I could richen up also, but where to start (leaner or richer??). Ran fine at 14.7 and 16.5? Same mpg at either.
4. whats the condition of ignition ? plugs fouled ? fresh ? get some fresh ones in and gap to MORE than recommended for better economy (but so you still have strong spark)
->Plugs were fine, but changed out with new plugs, cap, rotor. Resistance on the wires checked out good
5. injectors.... when they had been cleaned recently ? it is possible they produce poor atomization, leading to excessive fuel consumption....
-> I threw in a can of seafoam injection cleaner.
What sort of milage did you get with the carb setup?
->No previous mpg with the carb setup, the speedometer didn't work until I MS'd the car.
What cam/compression are you running?
->Stock Volvo cam(nothing special), engine was rebuilt prior to running the carb setup. Should I do a compression check of the engine??
"EGO crossover is set to 3.25v "
I think you should look at the ego configuration. With a wideband you dont have a crossover point you use the af ratio table. I could be misunderstanding what you are saying but it looks like you have a fundamental mistake. If I have it all wrong please accept my apology.
-> OK, this looks to be a major problem! How do I setup a WB02? I missed that completely. Where is this information?? In the Megamanual??
So, the EGO crossover is turned off with a wideband?? I need help big time with this!!!!
the lowest BSFC was achieved between 15.2 and 15.4 AFR
->Looks like I have my MS setup all wrong!! Previous post tell me to keep leaning it up!
Can someone please look at my msq, and give me some suggestions!!!
Paul
paul
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mops
- Experienced Squirter
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:13 pm
- Location: Auckland, NZ
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hm... i dunno....
if you are getting correct reading in megatune, it means you did set it up correctnyl. to confirm correct reading, use LC-1 logging app to compare readings.... note if you recalibrated lc-1 for ms (0v=10afr, 5v=20afr), lc-1 app will report wrong values
at 65-75mph cruise, what rpm and map r u running ?
i'm tempted to say that advancing more spark might be better...., but you dont control timing i understand.
but i think 21 mpg is not all that bad for a 65' 2100cc cruising at that speed.... how heavy is the car ?
ego x-over point should be stoich point... basically 2.35V for petrol... i dunno how you got 3.25v from...
if you are getting correct reading in megatune, it means you did set it up correctnyl. to confirm correct reading, use LC-1 logging app to compare readings.... note if you recalibrated lc-1 for ms (0v=10afr, 5v=20afr), lc-1 app will report wrong values
at 65-75mph cruise, what rpm and map r u running ?
i'm tempted to say that advancing more spark might be better...., but you dont control timing i understand.
but i think 21 mpg is not all that bad for a 65' 2100cc cruising at that speed.... how heavy is the car ?
ego x-over point should be stoich point... basically 2.35V for petrol... i dunno how you got 3.25v from...
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd , 127k miles, short shift, MSII, V3/code 2.684/60-2 wheel/MT 2.25, LC-1 wbO2, ignitor module mod driving msd coil/, 3 pin Bosch PWC IAC mod
You can run any crossover voltage with the wideband, I`ve got mine set at stoich (2.5v), O2 correction seems to be doing it`s job but if the Wideband is out it all your AFR`s and correction will be out as well..
As far as MS goes if you`re just running std O2 correction the only value that matters is the crossover point that you`ve set.
You need to have a seperate Wideband in the exhaust to check if yours is calibrated properly and MSLVV is showing the correct AFR`s.
Pull the plugs and check the colour..
As far as MS goes if you`re just running std O2 correction the only value that matters is the crossover point that you`ve set.
You need to have a seperate Wideband in the exhaust to check if yours is calibrated properly and MSLVV is showing the correct AFR`s.
Pull the plugs and check the colour..
Squirted VW GTI 16vG60 mk2
note if you recalibrated lc-1 for ms (0v=10afr, 5v=20afr)
->The LC-1 is set to 0v=10afr, 5v=20afr
at 65-75mph cruise, what rpm and map r u running ?
-> The datalog I posted is the car running at cruise at about 75mph. At 75mph, map is 56, and rpm is 3500.
i'm tempted to say that advancing more spark might be better...., but you dont control timing i understand.
-> Correct, MS is controlling fuel only. Timing is set to factory settings of 15* at idle, no vacuum.
but i think 21 mpg is not all that bad for a 65' 2100cc cruising at that speed.... how heavy is the car ?
-> my '65 car is 2400 lbs. The engine is from a '79 Volvo 240. The 240 weighs 3200lbs, and the mileage with this engine in the 240, running mechanical fuel injection (K-jet), using a narrow band 02 gets about 28mpg. I would assume at a minimum the MS EFI in 1/3 less weight car would get similiar mileage.
ego x-over point should be stoich point... basically 2.35V for petrol... i dunno how you got 3.25v from...
-> With the adjustment of the 0v=10afr, 5v=20afr, 14.7 is 2.5v. 16.5 is 3.25v.
You can run any crossover voltage with the wideband, I`ve got mine set at stoich (2.5v), O2 correction seems to be doing it`s job but if the Wideband is out it all your AFR`s and correction will be out as well..
->That's good to know. Maybe, the free air recalibrating of the LC-1 might help.
As far as MS goes if you`re just running std O2 correction the only value that matters is the crossover point that you`ve set.
->I'm going to run the standard 02 correction with the changes I've done so far (new plugs/cap/rotors, seafoam injection cleaner, and free air calibration of the LC-1). If no improve, switch over to the afr table method.
You need to have a seperate Wideband in the exhaust to check if yours is calibrated properly and MSLVV is showing the correct AFR`s.
-> I really don't want to buy a second 02 sensor. Sounds like a trip to a dyno if I can't work it out.
Pull the plugs and check the colour..
-> I've changed the plugs (Bosch Supers to Bosch Platinum). The old plugs look good, brown with slight electrode wear, a little soot deposit on insulator.
->The LC-1 is set to 0v=10afr, 5v=20afr
at 65-75mph cruise, what rpm and map r u running ?
-> The datalog I posted is the car running at cruise at about 75mph. At 75mph, map is 56, and rpm is 3500.
i'm tempted to say that advancing more spark might be better...., but you dont control timing i understand.
-> Correct, MS is controlling fuel only. Timing is set to factory settings of 15* at idle, no vacuum.
but i think 21 mpg is not all that bad for a 65' 2100cc cruising at that speed.... how heavy is the car ?
-> my '65 car is 2400 lbs. The engine is from a '79 Volvo 240. The 240 weighs 3200lbs, and the mileage with this engine in the 240, running mechanical fuel injection (K-jet), using a narrow band 02 gets about 28mpg. I would assume at a minimum the MS EFI in 1/3 less weight car would get similiar mileage.
ego x-over point should be stoich point... basically 2.35V for petrol... i dunno how you got 3.25v from...
-> With the adjustment of the 0v=10afr, 5v=20afr, 14.7 is 2.5v. 16.5 is 3.25v.
You can run any crossover voltage with the wideband, I`ve got mine set at stoich (2.5v), O2 correction seems to be doing it`s job but if the Wideband is out it all your AFR`s and correction will be out as well..
->That's good to know. Maybe, the free air recalibrating of the LC-1 might help.
As far as MS goes if you`re just running std O2 correction the only value that matters is the crossover point that you`ve set.
->I'm going to run the standard 02 correction with the changes I've done so far (new plugs/cap/rotors, seafoam injection cleaner, and free air calibration of the LC-1). If no improve, switch over to the afr table method.
You need to have a seperate Wideband in the exhaust to check if yours is calibrated properly and MSLVV is showing the correct AFR`s.
-> I really don't want to buy a second 02 sensor. Sounds like a trip to a dyno if I can't work it out.
Pull the plugs and check the colour..
-> I've changed the plugs (Bosch Supers to Bosch Platinum). The old plugs look good, brown with slight electrode wear, a little soot deposit on insulator.
paul
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efahl
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Actually, you don't need a second WB, just stick in a NB and see if they both tell you 14.7:1 at the same time, that will be a 95% test...malloy1 wrote:You need to have a seperate Wideband in the exhaust to check if yours is calibrated properly and MSLVV is showing the correct AFR`s.
-> I really don't want to buy a second 02 sensor. Sounds like a trip to a dyno if I can't work it out.
Eric